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mentodan No Multistrada
Joined: 29 Dec 2013 Posts: 35 Location: Troy NY
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Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:48 pm |
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Hi guys,
My name is Dan. I'm in the North East, looking for a new bike (current= 1981 CB900c, love it). The multi was not a natural contender for me, adventure/tourer not my style. And since I'm 5'7", I thought it'd be too tall. From what I've read here and there, should be ok though, there's no multi close enough for me to quickly go and check. So, I was initially looking at 2001-2005 yamaha FZ1/fazer which I believe is also a great do-it-all bike.
But I must say the cyclope multi is growing on me big time, but as for everybody, the tank and especially valve guides issues are scary. If the bike is great, I'm ok having to pay for a proper job (even if it is clearly a factory issue, big lapse from Ducati! it's not like this engine was new in 2003...), but from what I've been reading here, it seems the pb can very much re-occur if
_crappy mechanics
_crappy quality replacement guides
_or even with more solid aftermarket guides?
I understand some bikes will be fine, some won't. Frequent valve clearance checks/adjustments is one thing and ok since it's DIY, but having a major engine tear down every 10k or 20k miles is another...I'd use it everyday, even in winter etc. I need it to work.
I found a 2005 1000ds, <4k miles (prob no service at all except 1st one, so prob no clue about guides/extra play etc.) at ~ $5000, some minor scratches on tank and rear left plastic cover.
Is it a fair price?
how to tell if there's a pb with the tank, what/where to look?
For valve guides, is the average Ducati shop mechanics able to do a good job? Is it not possible for DIY at all? need for machines/press etc.?
bike not weather proof? water getting into instrumentation, creating condensation on the LCD, and all kinds of electrical mishaps?
Waiting for more details from owner. I will also ask about the 3 keys (red etc.).
many questions...thanks for your time
Dan |
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dickm MTS: 2005 1000 DS (Black)
Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 350 Location: west seattle
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:02 am |
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http://www.multistrada.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16675
Do not be alarmed, yes it is a great bike,yes the valve guides must be addressed.
Check the bikes #'s vs the ones listed in the Aircooled section's 'sticky at the top.
Check or ask for recommendations on someone to do the work. Done.
The tank issue is being sorted out here with CA-Cycleworks leading the way.
Worth the effort |
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_________________ '15 KTM 690
'09 1250 Bandit /Hole shot stage 1 |
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mentodan No Multistrada
Joined: 29 Dec 2013 Posts: 35 Location: Troy NY
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:09 pm |
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hey,
I made up my mind, multi is on top of my bike list
hard to get info from owner during holidays, I got some more though:
_tank replaced under warranty, owner did not say if related to ethanol, but I'd guess so
_replaced fuel gauge (early reserve alarm I guess)
scratch on the tank on the right, scratches on the left in passenger area.
Also, not garaged but bike stored for winter. Rusted brake discs allen bolts and oil lines from oil carter, it is certainly a seasoned 2005, not mint, mostly cosmetics? I don't think that's a big deal, what do you guys think? Anything hidden that suffers from humidity that should be checked?
Still need to see it, weather has just been really bad...thanks |
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coman MTS: 2013 1200S (Red)
Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 1956 Location: West Sussex, UK
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:07 pm |
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It's easy to fall for a thoroughbred. She'll seduce you
If the bike has been stored outside, definitely check the instrument panel. Condensation inside can be dried out if it is put somewhere with gentle heat, like close to a hot-water tank in an airing cupboard. Sometimes corrosion will have set in, and that should be obvious if one or more of the dash LEDs don't work. Not a disaster though, as several firms/people can renovate dashes, one of whom is a member on here. It would be a good bargaining chip as a new dash is expensive - around $1000 I think - even though second-hand ones can be got for a lot less and made to match your keys by the above repairers.
With a 2005 bike you should be OK with valve guides. I think it was mainly the 2004 models that had 'soft' guides, though I may be wrong. As dickm said, check the engine # against the list on here. At 4k there shouldn't be any problem anyway, though maybe further down the line. There are superior replacements available.
No service record is not good, but at 4k not much harm would have been done. Cam belts should be changes every 2 years, along with oil etc. First job would be to get it serviced including new belts.
I hope it works out for you. Plenty of knowledgeable and friendly people on here to help you. |
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_________________ Politicians are like babies'� nappies: they should be changed regularly. And for the same reason. |
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mentodan No Multistrada
Joined: 29 Dec 2013 Posts: 35 Location: Troy NY
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Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:05 pm |
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Thanks,
From what I've read, all bikes from 2003-2007 can have valve guide issues, with 2003-2005 being the most impacted.
Bike was in winter storage every winter, so oil/filter change each time at least. Waiting for more info. |
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keener MTS: 2005 1000S DS (Black)
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 3553 Location: Calgary /Canada
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Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:38 pm |
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mentodan wrote: | | | | Thanks,
From what I've read, all bikes from 2003-2007 can have valve guide issues, with 2003-2005 being the most impacted.
Bike was in winter storage every winter, so oil/filter change each time at least. Waiting for more info. | | | |
From what I have gathered via my mechanic and others , the valve guide issue is inherent to the design of the head "as well" , so even though there are better guides available ..
.eventually the guides... may... need to be replaced again , its not a sure thing..
..this being said the duration between guide replacement depends on maintenance and when done properly you could expect fairly long life to the top end in general.
The problem with the design of the heads on... some... of the two valve engines the 1000 and 1100 specifically is cam and valve interface ...the cams them selves load the valve stems via the desmo rockers very slightly off center forcing them over time to round out the guides eventually causing sloppy guides on valve stems .." worse with DP cams"BTW
The remedy has been different guides perhaps of a harder compound to stand up longer to this , also different lighter valves have been used to work better with guides that are matched to the valves.
When you port and polish a head , install good guides and better valves the engine not only makes more power, it becomes more reliable with better duration between setting than a stock head could ever be.
it is the way it should have been done in the first place , Ducati can not do this on what is really still a mass produced engine." mfg cost"
The four valve head Ducati engines are better in this respect I have been told ...lighter valves and different angle I suppose ..
Anyway.... this all made sense to me when explained by a respected mechanic that has worked on many Ducatis and has done many valve jobs to them over the years.
Cheers
Keener
Last edited by keener on Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:07 am; edited 2 times in total |
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_________________ Smile and Tremble
74 Z1 900
98 1200 Bandit
2015 Kawasaki Verses 1000 |
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mentodan No Multistrada
Joined: 29 Dec 2013 Posts: 35 Location: Troy NY
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Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:28 pm |
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Hi Keener,
right, design weakness of desmo system, the rocker movement is not a nice straight translation following the stem axis, it's curved. So it is hard on valve stem then on the guide. You're right, ligher valve + harder guide will only extend the maintenance interval, which is very important, but it will eventually get beaten too. I believe that's the way you chose on yours. Makes sense to do it while at it if it gives an extra 10 maybe 20k! if I may ask, how much for total operation (valve seats need to be redone with new guide, maybe new bore for new guide etc.), did you remove the heads yourself?
Any mechanism will wear in time, I guess I'm a bit perplexed that Ducati still went on production with such a weak mix of materials for such a known critical part of this engine, leading to failure <10k.
And when you say:
"duration between guide replacement depends on maintenance and when done properly you could expect fairly long life to the top end in general."
what is a critical knob here? valve clearance and belts?
So does it need very tight valve clearance for both opening and closing, is that the best?
thank you |
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keener MTS: 2005 1000S DS (Black)
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 3553 Location: Calgary /Canada
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Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:34 pm |
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mentodan wrote: | | | | Hi Keener,
right, design weakness of desmo system, the rocker movement is not a nice straight translation following the stem axis, it's curved. So it is hard on valve stem then on the guide. You're right, ligher valve + harder guide will only extend the maintenance interval, which is very important, but it will eventually get beaten too. I believe that's the way you chose on yours. Makes sense to do it while at it if it gives an extra 10 maybe 20k! if I may ask, how much for total operation (valve seats need to be redone with new guide, maybe new bore for new guide etc.), did you remove the heads yourself?
Any mechanism will wear in time, I guess I'm a bit perplexed that Ducati still went on production with such a weak mix of materials for such a known critical part of this engine, leading to failure <10k.
And when you say:
"duration between guide replacement depends on maintenance and when done properly you could expect fairly long life to the top end in general."
what is a critical knob here? valve clearance and belts?
So does it need very tight valve clearance for both opening and closing, is that the best?
thank you | | | |
Hi Mentodan
My guides were gone or going at about 16000 miles...
so I had a choice replace the guides and clean up the stock valves /seats
not a bad thing to do and good enough for a long while ..
OR do the heads completely ...
I decided to go for it and do the heads ..
new valves (bigger) SS
new seats 5 angle
new guides
and a flowed head ..very pretty
I have some experience but not enough time to pull the heads myself so Motorrad performance in TurnerValley Alberta took over..
It was expensive 3.5k but I gained probably 12% over stock ..
she motors.......
It is critical that lash on a Desmo be set up tight to factory spec
especially after break in new or redone ,after they have run in for awhile they need to be set way less often after everything has bedded in.
Belts should be fresh, adjusted and changed when due.
The stock engines aren't bad they are just built to a price ,
Ducati is not alone in this
some stock engines on this site have gone over 100,000 miles
probably with some work,but still they are a good strong motor.
I can expect never having to go back inside" hopefully".
And really when you think about it, I know where I am now with this motor , hell I got a great deal on it initially so a fix with a flowed head etc is worth it IMO ..
they are a great motorcycle all in all ..
Cheers Keener
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_________________ Smile and Tremble
74 Z1 900
98 1200 Bandit
2015 Kawasaki Verses 1000 |
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dickm MTS: 2005 1000 DS (Black)
Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 350 Location: west seattle
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Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:09 pm |
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Keep in mind at 4,000 miles you have plenty of fun riding to do before the valve thing needs addressing. <maybe 2 years to get yer ducs in a row before it may or may not need work.
Annoy the neighbors, wheelie away, you won't stop grinning |
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_________________ '15 KTM 690
'09 1250 Bandit /Hole shot stage 1 |
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keener MTS: 2005 1000S DS (Black)
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 3553 Location: Calgary /Canada
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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:18 pm |
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dickm wrote: | | | | Keep in mind at 4,000 miles you have plenty of fun riding to do before the valve thing needs addressing. <maybe 2 years to get yer ducs in a row before it may or may not need work.
Annoy the neighbors, wheelie away, you won't stop grinning | | | |
Ditto
My guides didn't fail until 16000 miles and I could have went further.
Some have had no issues with the guides.. some have but needed the guides at 30000 miles plus ...
Keener |
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_________________ Smile and Tremble
74 Z1 900
98 1200 Bandit
2015 Kawasaki Verses 1000 |
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The Duchess of Desmo MTS: 2011 1200 (White)
Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 4965 Location: Shropshire UK
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Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:11 am |
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Hi,
I am not technically minded but can ride technically difficult roads with style I did many comfortable miles on my 2005 sds he was a reliable gentleman! I am 5 ft 6 had no problem reaching the ground. The sv1000 and the fazer 1000 are great bikes too but, not as much fun as multistroodles!
Kind Regards,
The Duchess |
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_________________ mother despairs of me!brother thinks I'm cool!
Current ride 1260 Multi my 6th multi,scrambler 800 Panigale 1299 sold .Panigale 1199 sold.Super Tenere 1200 sold .Multistrada 1200 touring,1200 PP,1200ABS, 1000sds 1100 all sold |
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mentodan No Multistrada
Joined: 29 Dec 2013 Posts: 35 Location: Troy NY
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:03 pm |
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Thank you all for the inputs. For the last 3 Saturdays, they would not have let me test ride it because of the bad weather, so I haven't driven down to check it out yet...I'm thinking 2h driving is useless if I can't test ride it.
Can't buy w/o testing it right?
From what I gathered, the bike is less than 4k miles in 8 years (!) so it has been siting quite a bit, storage in winter, outside rest of time, there's some rust.
I know I will have to replace all the fluids: oil, brake, clutch, fork (maybe even rear shock?). Maybe clean the brake calipers and pistons etc.
I'm especially concerned with the hydraulic clutch, if the fluild is old/crystallized, could be tricky right? I hear master cylinders on ducati can not be disassembled/rebuilt. |
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mentodan No Multistrada
Joined: 29 Dec 2013 Posts: 35 Location: Troy NY
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Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:42 pm |
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Hi
Finally, after all this bad and frigid weather, I made some progress and I got to see the bike last WE.
Good/clean shape in general, but lots of rust on bolts, nuts etc. as mentioned before as it's been sitting outside (but stored every winter) and generally, I'd say little care from previous owner.
The bike is in storage since july 2013 at the dealer, so has not run in a while. The bike started after some cranking and about 4 or 5 attempts. The dealer guy told me the last time he started it was more than 10 days ago.
After starting, it idled fine, the dry clutch is noisy but not so as I expected. Because it is still owned by the owner and not dealer, the dealer did not let me test ride it. As much as I could tell in these conditions, my feeling is that the engine sounded ok...
Only 2400 miles (2005). Price is $4700. I put a deposit.
It has some issues but I loved it when I saw it
I know I will have to replace all fluids, do the belts (last done in 2010, but little miles on them) etc.
1) What do you think?
2) how much do you pay for insurance ~?
I got a quote for ~$800/year from progressive (my current insurance). Friend of mine has a BMWGS1200 from 2011 and pays only $400 (liberty mutual) |
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keener MTS: 2005 1000S DS (Black)
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 3553 Location: Calgary /Canada
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Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:25 pm |
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Its always hard to judge a bike with out actually seeing it ...
but if at 2400 actual miles and $ 4700 sounds like a pretty good deal.
Your probably going to have to spend some $$ on her and some time but if it feels right then
Any service records ?
As for insurance ...seems high but then again I am a Canadian so I have to bow out on that one.
2400 miles with a Ducati means you may have to break it in
cheers Keener |
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_________________ Smile and Tremble
74 Z1 900
98 1200 Bandit
2015 Kawasaki Verses 1000 |
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potomacduc MTS: 2013 1200 (Red)
Joined: 22 Aug 2006 Posts: 3362 Location: VA, USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:27 pm |
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As a reference point I sold my 04 this past summer and monitored the market before posting it for sale. I listed it for $4799 and sold it for asking price in less than 2 weeks. This was May/June, so prime riding season when prices are generally higher than winter. My bike was higher mileage and a year older, but quite clean, well serviced and ran great. It was well accessorized with all 03-04 model year issues addressed and both valve guides and tank had been replaced.
I think the market is around the asking price for the 05, but at this time of year and considering the bike needs immediate service, I think there is room to move down on the price a few hundred.
Just my $.02. Whatever you decide, good luck and welcome aboard...
Last edited by potomacduc on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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