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Forum index -   Wanna buy: Any one tried the BMW R1150GS and Ducati Multistrada ?
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Captain Scarlet
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:17 am Reply with quote

Just to further add a personal view to two comments:

Don: I've spent time on F650GS's (stock, low & Dakar versions), including spending time riding off road with Dakar entrants Nick Plumb and Simon Pavey in the Brecon Beacons, Wales. It crashes wella nd albeit in a heavy way handles extremely well off-road. But in no way is it anywhere near a match for the MS ont he road. It has neither the power, smoothness, handling or grip to come remotely close. A fine bike all the same, just in a different sector, league and price bracket to the Duke.

Loucksgl: Your comments obviously refer to the 'old' R1150GS and not to the 'new' 1200 (100 bhp / 85 lb ft / 199 kilo). I rode the new R1200GS for two hundred miles back to back with my Multistrada, solo, two-up and on every type of road imaginable. The GS'12' has a better power to weight ratio at any given revs over the MS and has the edge on acceleration. You are right in that the MS does handle better as it ultimately has more grip from the bigger tyres, however I managed to get my knee down on the R1200GS demo bike (in the UK we have very twisty roads and roundabouts to play on Very Happy) without any difficulty, so handling has to be put into perspective and so long as you're smooth the GS is still better than us as mere mortal riders. Apart from ultimate grip though, for me, the GS is better in every other single respect bar none. Don't get me wrong the MS is truly a fabulous bike and I don't want to be crucified saying I prefer the GS on an MS site! However the minor (but annoying) minor hassles I had with my MS and having ridden both back to back over hundreds of miles I'd be lying if I didn't say that the new 1200 GS is a quantative and qualitative improvement (I'm a Quality (Validation & Verification) Manager btw!) over the MS, despite the Duke still being a truly brilliant bike (to ride).

It's great that we all have our own views and appreciatte that we respect others views even if they don't fully represent our own. The one thing that I'm sure we probably all agree upon is that the BMW R1200GS and Ducati Multistrada are the best all-round, all-rounds, real-world-speeds, motorcycles on the face of the planet. A tough category of two, but like the Lamborghini and Ferrari argument - whichever we choose how can we possible lose? Very Happy

BTW I've just sold the Duke privately. I ordered an R1200GS before the UK March launch, however I still have to wait until September (at the earliest) for it to arrive. Every UK dealer sold out until the end of the year prior to the launch and on the launch day they were already selling 2005 bikes. The waiting list is already summer 2005 now - irrelevant of dealer and paying full rrp (see UKGSER forum) and despite the steep RRP of £9300 (about $17,000) the only two used one's I've seen were selling privately for £11k & £12k respectively, or well over $20,000. I think the evidence there speaks for itself - but don't take my word for it, demo the R1200GS and make your own minds up, whether you stay / buy the MS or GS either way you're ok in my book and have made the right decision for 'you', and at the end of the day who else matters? Enjoy. Very Happy

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ingo
MTS: 2007 1100 (Red)

   

Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 139
Location: Hamburg

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 6:32 am Reply with quote

To add my personal view as a GS1150 (two years now) driver and a maybe future Multi owner :

First i have to disagree that the GS12 is good in the quality department, it is worse than the 1150 with cheap plastic parts and as usual with new electronics they failed also sometimes, like with the Multi`s odometer. Although BMW has done a good job making the bike better balanced than the old one, its still 20 kilos more than the Multi has (around 240 kilo ready to go). And please dont forget that it has shaft drive, so the power settings are a bit lower than promised (measured at the clutch normally), just substract 10 % for the GS and 2 % for the Multi and you know what is getting on the rear tire of this power.

My main reason for changing the bikes is the suspension, even on the new GS its far from the excellent suspension the Multi has. You get a good feeling of the road on the Multi, while the GS gives you a bumpy ride, specially because of the weight on the rear wheel with the shaft drive.

And don't be fooled by BMW's marketing, they have done an excellent job always to talk their bikes good. There is no high demand for the GS12, they only lowered the production start and build not that many bikes, that way they get the full list price for their bikes in the first year, no discounts needed. Also weird is that the bike is only available with ABS, heated grips for a higher price, although last year they claimed that the new and modern factory in Berlin can react quickly to customer demands.

Just some food for thought on BMW, its not as bright as it always shines. But of course they are reliable bikes and easy to repair, but like with the Multi a lot depends on the right dealer.

So please don't talk the poor lill Multi so bad, she has a sensitive soul Sad It is an italian bike with the usual problems, but in my opinion its a more complete bike than the new renovated GS. The GS isn't bad at all, but the Multi is the better all-around bike in my humble opinion. Whistle
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Captain Scarlet
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:40 am Reply with quote

Ingo:

No sorry my friend you are mistaken. Please refer to BMW's own web site(s). The Multistrada is 198 kilo dry, the GS is 199 kilo 'semi-wet'. i.e. including engine oil, battery acid and brake fluids etc (something Japanese manufacturers omit). Both bikes will weigh around 225 kilo ready-to-ride (fuelled).

Please explain how you measure power at 'the clutch', I believe manufacturers claim crank figures (I'm unsure just how they measure this either and Ducati have asked manufacturers to prove this claim too)

For the record 'BMW' claim 100 bhp and 85 lb/ft of torque. Which is a 15% & 17% increase over the 1150 variant for the same revs - but of course the 1200 is a whopping '30' kilo lighter than the 1150 (which I've also owned). This translates to a claimed 0-60 mph of 5.7 for the 1150 and 3.4 (yes nearly 'twice' as fast acceleration) for the 1200.

If you email me directly I can return a spreadsheet with full detaile d(BMW source) specs and dimensions of the 1150 and 1200 side by side, plus dyno charts of 'rear-wheel' horsepower and torque (in Nm) for for the two models.

As for electrics the new single wire CAN system makes a traditional loom and fuses redundant and should be both simpler and more reliable as a result. Looking at the forums (GSUKERs & ADV Riders) nobody has a problem with the electrics, unlike my brother who is on his third set of clocks for his Multistrada!

BMW restricted production to around 25 bikes per dealer in the UK. Some dealers, e.g. Rainbow had already sold their annual alocation in January. The launch wasn't until March - go figure. The GS has been the biggest selling bike in Germany, bar none - in any sector - for the last three years running. Of course they're not popular machines - not! Making fewer bikes than you can sell is good from a manufacturing / profitability point of view and also happens to promote excellent residuals values - the biggest cost of ownership outlay of any machine - I lost £1,000 ($1800) per 1,000 mile I did on the Duke; that's a big deal to most riders.

As for plastics the lugs snapped off on the storage compartment on mine and the plastic melted near the exhaust on my brothers bike. The GS'12' panels are actually aluminium and plastic with Dzus fasterners now - they'll probably not break or melt.

You are most certainly right about having a good dealer, but again, in the UK at least Harley and BMW dealers seem a cut above most Ducati dealers, but it's also fair to say Ducati dealers seem better than Triumph and infinitely better than Japanese dealers by way of comparison.

I need the best 'all-rounder' as you put it and therefore (for me) it was the GS that won the day. Why? Better tank range, comfort (for pillion too), mirrors which work, no chain, lower maint, longer service intervals, perceived better quality / reliability, ABS-PAS brakes, hand guards, pannier rails and rack as standard, teflon type finish on shaft, telelever and heads - I mean 'practicality' wise need I go on?

Please don't take this posting the wrong way (anyone) I've no wish to diss the MS in any way, I was just initially anwering the intiial question fo this forum and giving a very personal view on whether the R1200GS is a better bet than the MS.

I absolutely loved 'riding' my Ducati Multistrada and it was a very difficult decision for me to part with it. But 'riding' and 'owning' are two different things, and the 'ownership experience' for myself and also my brother (who still has his despite little joy when speaking directly to Ducati about his 'problems') meant we both experienced some 'usual problems' as you put it. And I'm sorry, but on a £7,600 / $10,000 bike in this day and age - frankily that's simply not aceptable of world racing champions who have built a bike largely based on existing range technology. But hey, if you prefer the MS then live an dlet live etc Very Happy

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ERWIN
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:06 am Reply with quote

Sorry for my english, but when i read this...

A Belgian motormagazine "Motoren en toerisme" did a test on a dyna with the MS, the BMW 1200 GS and the KTM 950.
They mesured at the [b]rear wheel [/b] for the BMW 2 HP less than the Multistrada and 10 less than the KTM (edition 05/2004), and this all dispite what BMW publish. Evenso for the weight of the bikes. The bikes with the gastank filled and almost the same options: MS 219 kg, KTM 238 kg, BMW 242 kg.

Their opinion :
The MS is the most beautiful bike of them, but she is a sports streetbike and not suited for dirt roads. The BMW is not really beautiful, an assembling of pieces not all realy suiting well together, but the best tourer and the KTM, high like a tower, is the best offroader.
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PeeBee
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Amsterdam, Holland

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:33 am Reply with quote

Why compare a MTS to a GS to a KTM? Because they have an upright seating position?

I've test driven the GS many many times (never bought one, though), owned the MTS and have a KTM 950S currently. These are three very different animals, and they each fall into their own category. Most probably they make up a category of their own. I know my KTM does the latter Smile
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ingo
MTS: 2007 1100 (Red)

   

Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 139
Location: Hamburg

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 9:28 am Reply with quote

Well Cap Scarlet, as Erwin mentioned the realworld numbers are different. The same test was in the german magazine "PS" with similar numbers. So overall the GS12 is only 10 kilos lighter than the GS1150, but 30 kilos than the GS1150 Adventure. And sorry, i meant crank numbers and not clutch Embarassed

And to PeeBee, why did you get the KTM if the its a total different bike than the MTS ? They all fullfill the need for an allround bike. In my personal opinion the bike that comes closest to this is the GS650Dakar, reliable Rotax engine, low fuel consumption, enough power even for highways, specially with the 2Spark engine (ok, theres nothing like enough power Rolling Eyes ) , acceptable build quality and lots of aftermarket support.

For me the bike that comes close to the MTS is the Tiger, although in a more "solid" and smooth way, but with some more weight. And while were at it, don't forget Aprilias excellent CapoNord, same weight as GS and Tiger, but very different motorcharacteristics. And there are Hondas Varadero, the VStrom and the TDM..... So many different allround bikes to choose from...... Think
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Captain Scarlet
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 10:29 am Reply with quote

Erwin, your english is fine my friend Smile

I believe what you report. Hopping off the MS to the GS several times (continually without riding) I didn't notice any weight difference but if there was any I'd say fully fuelled the MS has the edge. I think I'd notice the significant 23 kilod iffernce you mention though. I've owned heavy Harleys and light R1's, and you get a good feel for weigh and distribution. I felt it was neglible, but be the first to hold up my hands if I'm wrong and goign by this report I could well be, especially as the GS has a slightly bigger tanke etc. BMW aren't knwon for lying about the weight of their bikes though anf 43 kilo for fuel seems pushing it seems the near same tank capacity of the Strada only pushed weight up by half that. I also sem to remember (many) historical reports saying 242 for a wet '1150'. In fact I'm pretty sure I have an electronic copy of that article and I will check it because I think the article claims 199 dry and mentions the 1150 was 243 wet (not a particularly useful comparison by said magazine I will grant you!).

As for MS best road, GS best tourer, KTM best off-roader I have no problem with that. Comfort apart I think the MS is a better road bike from a rider satisfaction perspective than the GS, it's just 'arguably' not as satisfying to own from a living wiht the thing poitn of view etc.

Look are debatable, I don't much care for the MS headlight/fairing, and the GS has never been a looker more pterodactyl on acid! Although it's nice to see anything that isn't a jelly mold clone right?

PeeBee: Good observation and comment. Personally I considered either keeping the Duke or buying the GS or KTM (only) this year. Viewed in that context, as opposed to obvious competition - MS vs Speed Triple, GS vs Tiger etc) I suppose they had a point? i.e. they either are or were the best bike in their relative sectors but also appeal to similar buyers etc.

Ingo: Fair comment too, and I never claimed rear wheel BHP of 100 - BMW claim a crank figure. My brother and I rode the GS back to back with the Strada. He prefered the MS as he does solo miles and wants a sporty bike, I prefered the GS as I mainly ride two-up and want a sprightly tourer. We both agreed that the power and acceleration was very similar at all revs throughout the entire range, with the GS having a slight advantage above 6,000 rpm which neither of us usefully (or truthfully!) ride in for very long on these torquey bikes. I remarked that I'd be suprised if either bike varied significantly in bhp or torque curve but seat of the pants was 85 bhp at the rear of our Strada's and 87 bhp in the GS. He agrred unoquivcally. So we're talk pub/bar banter of insignicant amounts. If you want power buy a ZX10R it's cheaper and does 100 and something zillion in first gear alone and despite claims to the contrary also produces more torque than our torque-laden twins too. No, we both simply agreed (getting back to the Lambo / Ferrari argument) that we shoudl invoke smug git mode at having hopped out of the sports-bike rat race and turned to more useable, rewarding real world bikes and have probably chosen the best two at that!

But hey if you ride (C60 or Wing, Road King or RS125) you're alright with me - we'll leave the bigotting to none-riders! Very Happy

BTW Triumph have just released a revised Tiger including 'alloy' wheels, panniers, heated grips (all standard), plus beefier fork springs, for a couple of grand cheaper than the GS and slighter cheaper than the MS. for anyone wanting a comfy tourer and don't like BM's it's worth a try as is the slightly bland but super reliable and comfortable Varadero.

Enjoy your riding everyone! Very Happy

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badittude
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 27
Location: Baton Rouge, La. USA

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 10:33 am Reply with quote

Gentlemen,

You are to be commended on the way you are conducting your debate. I have to admit, that if there were 3-4 of my American mates, the topic would likely have fallen into hurt feelings and personal attacks.

This is the way its supposed to be done.

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Captain Scarlet
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 10:40 am Reply with quote

You have a good attitude, erm, 'badattitude'! Very Happy

Like I say we're all adults and bikers. At the end of the day we'll leave bigotting to un-enlightened road users in their tin-boxes, and we all respect the right for anyone to disagree with our own personal views....

...even though we 'know' we're right.... .....and they're all losers, coz they don't agree with me.... ....and my tackles bigger than your tackle... ...and erm, I don't want to admit I've bought a lemon!

S.W.A.T. Team stood down... Very Happy

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fiirestorm
No Multistrada

   

Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 190
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 11:57 am Reply with quote

Its interesting to see this thread is going strong. It is also heartening to see it hasn't descended into the usual defensive and offensive slanging match.

In case you haven't read throught the whole thread, I went for a MST in red. Have had problems with the bike and dealer, but I'm still lovin every minute of it.

Should I have bought a 1150GS ? Don't think so, the 1200GS is closer, but haven't ridden one yet and it is too expensive for me. Others I didn't like or didn't fit on to.

Happy biking, whatever your choice Wink

fiirestorm
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Captain Scarlet
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 12:13 pm Reply with quote

firestorm: well we could always meet up at Box Hill one Sunday and have a proper argument iif you like! ;-D

I'm in spitting distance of the M25 /London and think the MS and GS are ideal urban assault vehicles to deal with the many variances we have in traffic and what's laughable refered to as 'roads' in many parts.

The transition from (presumably?) FireStorm to MS will have been a fairly painless one I'm sure, with the added benefit of better brakes, bar leverage etc. And improve dmarque kudo's never looks bad when out and about does it?

I think moving to the 1150 would have been a culture shock for sure, especially if you're used to Jap / sports bikes boxers have an altogether different but rather engaging character all of their own which isn't for everyone and the 1150 is particularly agricultural with regard to gearbox (why they never bothers stripping a Gixer and copying the internals I'll never know ) and the oppposed flat-twin engine takes a bit of getting used to as well.

You're right in that the 1200 is closer. It's closer in that it's the first beemer to have a smooth box of cogs (I've had a K-GT, R11S and R1150GS), the engine now has a smooth balancer shaft (almost 'too' smooth, certainly smoother than the Duke) and the whole plot can be thrown around pretty much like the Strada once you get it into your skull to ignore the fact the it's got a 19" front hoop and the tyres still look relatively skinny by modern standards - it's all in the midn I tell you!

If you get a day off and fancy a blat then ask Paul Hill at SLM in Caterham to lend you a GS demo for the morning. You might not enjoy it as much as the MS, you might think it cost too much (and it does), but you can at least ride it to the coast (Brighton's about 50 miles) for some fish and chips and throw it around the lovely Sussex b-roads on your way back. It won't cost you a penny and you'll have a great day out - not a bad deal then really? Be warned though, if you then want a GS and can't afford to change - don't blame me! ;-D

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PeeBee
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Amsterdam, Holland

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 12:41 pm Reply with quote

ingo wrote:
And to PeeBee, why did you get the KTM if the its a total different bike than the MTS ? They all fullfill the need for an allround bike. In my personal opinion the bike that comes closest to this is the GS650Dakar, reliable Rotax engine, low fuel consumption, enough power even for highways, specially with the 2Spark engine (ok, theres nothing like enough power Rolling Eyes ) , acceptable build quality and lots of aftermarket support.


What are you saying here? That, because I had a MTS, It's strange for me to pick the KTM? Because it's different? Think
So, after picking a Ducati once, you're stuck with it? Hope not! Smile

And the BMW Dakar compares to the KTM you mean? It -maybe- compares to the KTM LC4 Adventure, but never, ever to the twin.
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fiirestorm
No Multistrada

   

Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 190
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 1:10 pm Reply with quote

El Capitain
I just might take you up on the offer - 1200GS and fish+chips for lunch ? Why not ?

It was an extremely close call on the 1150GS vs MST, the fact that the MST would be new with a 2year warranty with 0% over 2 years compared with a 2001 on a 51 with 24k miles and corrosion on the aluminium bits and 1 year warranty. I took both bikes for extended test rides, one after the other, from different dealers, to help me make my mind up.

I liked the look of both bikes, ugly and interesting at the same time.

The 1150 seemed quite weezy/breathless to me, the MST stomped all over it, especially midrange and above. From tickover, the GS is better.

Handling and suspension wise, I like both of them, the GS is on the softer more touring orientated, the MST more sporty, overall for me I would go just as fast on either of them.

In terms of running costs/cost of ownership, I don't think theres much in it. Both are expensive to maintain if you go for dealer servicing to keep the warranty intact. If I were to service myself, I'd go for the GS probably, as the desmo valves would put me off, but thats almost years away, perhaps I'll learn how to do it by then ...

Reliability wise I personally know of people who have had really dire support from BMW and Ducati dealers and their bikes. Corrosion, electrics, panniers, surging, brakes, you name it, both the GS and MST are guilty of.

For resale, the GS is great till you come to sell it, especially if high miles are involved, but that'll hold true for the MST and any other motorcycle. Just take a look at www.ukgser.com/forums

At the end of the day, since I commute through central London on mine, the MST won my heart as she is a slim, sexy Italian red head Laughing

time to start work again, speak to you later....
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ingo
MTS: 2007 1100 (Red)

   

Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 139
Location: Hamburg

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:51 pm Reply with quote

PeeBee wrote:
What are you saying here? That, because I had a MTS, It's strange for me to pick the KTM? Because it's different? Think
So, after picking a Ducati once, you're stuck with it? Hope not! Smile

And the BMW Dakar compares to the KTM you mean? It -maybe- compares to the KTM LC4 Adventure, but never, ever to the twin.


Aaah no, you asked why we compare the MTS, GS and the KTM, i thoguht they are close because they are all allround bikes, each with a different target. Although i think the step from a small MTS to a KTM950 S is a big one Laughing

And i compare the Dakar to the twin because its better than the 640Adventure in long distance touring, so more comparable to the twin. The Dakar runs smoother (the 2Spark) and it is a bit slower. And of course it costs less. I still prefer the Dakar over the GS1150, its more fun and easier to loose your license.

firestrom wrote:
At the end of the day, since I commute through central London on mine, the MST won my heart as she is a slim, sexy Italian red head


A redhead, so is it rusty ? Mr. Green

I might add that all the allround bikes in germany (GS, Capo, Tiger, Vara...) costs roughly the same, so no premium price for the GS. Can anyone compare the Tiger or the Capo with the Multi ? I still have a few weeks for my decision left, so at the weekend i hopefully can testride a Capo and maybe the Multi with the touring screen.
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Rocker
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 1153
Location: Ashford Kent UK

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:24 pm Reply with quote

Having had the Capo out as a test for a day I really enjoyed it. If my local dealer had not given up the Apriilia dealership and gone solus Ducati I think it would have been a very hard choice.At the risk of getting castigated by list members I think I may have chosen the Cappo

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