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Forum index -   Wanna buy: Any one tried the BMW R1150GS and Ducati Multistrada ?
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Rockey
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Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 32
Location: West Sussex

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 11:14 pm Reply with quote

one thing to consider.............will Prilla be around much longer Crying or Very sad if not then parts could be hard to come by.

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Rocker
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Joined: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 1153
Location: Ashford Kent UK

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:37 am Reply with quote

Rockey Aprillia parts are hard to come by at the best of times.
It would now appear that the company will be saved by another of those strange italian financial rescue packages

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Captain Scarlet
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Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 5:37 am Reply with quote

El Capitano sticking my ore in again Very Happy ...

flamedweatherfront:

R1200GS + B-roads + fish & chips = a winning combo; do it. Tell Paul Hill I sent you Very Happy

I agree with your comments on the GS & MS, with just a couple of slight observations thrown in. I think servicing long-term on the beemer would be cheaper. For a start service intervals are more than twice as long at 6,000 minor and 12,000 major. There is no body work to strip off to access the heads and of course no complex desmo valves to adjust; a time consuming and costly (coz it's labour that costs right?) job. Also, less of a problem but to be considered are thinks like chains and sprockets, whereas for example the oil in the new shaft drive on the GS12 is never changed for the entire lifetime of the vehicle, so it's literally zero maint.

Reliability wise, you have a point, just because you buy a brand new Rolls Royce does not guarentee you will never have a problem no matter how large or small. However, we have to presume that companies typically highly regarded for decent quality be they Lexus, Honda or BMW etc, are 'most likely' to remain less hassle in terms of actual ownership experience. A Ducati dealer once said to me 'Dukes are fanatastic once you sort out all the niggly little problems that the factory really should have sorted out for themselves and don't get too frustrated that the people in Bologna don't bother wearign watches'. Painted an instant picture!

For instance the new electrics. The hack riding MCN's R1200GS long termer had this to say (six weeks and 2,500 miles old): "I cursed the complexity of the electronics but after a tail light blew last week I've changed my mind. Travelling home one night, the dash warning light came on with a symbol to tell me that the rear light had gone. When I stopped and checked, the light seemed fine, I cursed again but all was explained int he manual. Whent he bulb fails, the onboard 'brain' recognises the circuit has broken. The braint hen sends a lower voltage to the brake light filament making it appear like a tail light. The brake light works as normal. Clever stuff. After lunch I noticed the hand guard had spun round slightly on it's mount. I tried to knock it back round by tapping it with the palm of my hand and instantly the small plastic mounting bracket broke. It turns out the bracket is a sacrificial part designed to break instead of the guard itself. It costs £4.36. More clever stuff from the Germans".

So problems can occur with anything, but it's the way that problems are dealt with and the level of attention to detail and thought that goes into it. For instance my '03 Audi A3 realises that after pullign back the water washers and auto wiping a few times that when the wipers stop 30 seconds of so later you're still going to be left with a water streak as the liquid runs back down the window, so it automatically does a single delayed reaction wipe to erradicate this. Or, for instance, if you've had the wipers on during the journey, then when you go to reverse parralel park, as you put the car into reverse it guestimates that there's probably rain on the rear window and again automatically invokes a single rear screen wipe for you. We've all been blasted by a car stereo that was left on loud after being listened to and turned off at high speed on a previous journey, but the A3 reverts back to a default quiter setting. It's this painstaking attention to detail that makes a mockery of e.g. the 'testing' performed on the 'miles until empty' indication of the MS clocks, or dampening mirror vibrations, or offering a thin seat as standard and only marginally thicker comfort seat as an accessory, rather than vice-versa. Still as a different Ducati dealer once said to me "It's Italian - what did you expect?". again fair comment.

Resale value of the GS is better than the MS currently. I've only seen two private ad's for R12GS's but once was for £12,000 and the other £11,000. considering dealers typically ask more than private seller I thinkt hat speaks volumes! However check out used prices of the 1150 and they are still holding strong, especially in Adventure spec. Yes, of course they were expensive to buy new, but in actual real terms (percentage wise) they've actually held their price very well. In fact in MCN last month they claim the Triumph Daytona 600, Yamaha Fazer 600 and BMW R1200GS will be the least depreciating bikes in the next year based on official CAP guide figures.

I think the MS is tops for commuting in some ways becaus eof it's thiness and ability to peer over traffic etc. The GS12 is marginally wider, but not amazingly so, now that it wears much thinner (Magura style) slimmer (and tapered) handlebars - which are now much closer to the rider too. The real town advantages the GS has is that it now has a super-light hydraulic clutch, which is very noticeable compared with the MS, a smoother enginer (but still with enough lumpy character) and at practically a stand-still is marginally more balance too.

ingo:
I think you have a fair point. I think big blokes will prefer the extra space and poke of the 1150, particularly on road though.

Rocker/Rockey/Rockster!:
Prillia have suffered minor 'Italianesque' relibaility and dealer problems too, plus they are having the banks keep bailing them out all the time because they have current huge debts. Although their main investor could purchase a bigger share of the company the irony is that BMW migth buy this instead to give them an instant racing arm! Personally I'd take the GS12, '05 spec Tiger or even minor revised '04 spec Varadero over the Prilla personally. At least you know that with either of those three reliability and a company future is pretty secure.

Once last point - promise! It was mentioned that shaft drive loses mroe power int he final drivechain than chain and it's fair point. However bear this in mind, the R1200GS is 99% new (quite literally only the front brake disks remain from the old bike). So this means a completely redesigned drive chain too. In fact the gearboax, shaft, paralever, wheels, tyres and brakes are all lighter unsprung mass which help reduce final drive loss and improve acceleration and geometric forces (changing direction, handling, etc). Two visbily noriceable aspects of this is the loss of rear brake carrier and a 50mm hollow spindle ("that you can wave a sausage through" - PBikes), which all aids power retention and power expulsion.

It's all miniscule measurement symantics, but the more I think about it, the more I'm happy with the best two decisions I've made in the last two years. i.e. enjoy a Multistrada from '03-'04 and to enjoy a GS12 from '04-onwards. to put this all into some kind of perspective though, heck - I could still enjoy riding a 50cc moped! Very Happy

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Rocker
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Joined: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 1153
Location: Ashford Kent UK

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 5:54 am Reply with quote

Captain scarlet You make some excellent points.I tried and dismissed the GS (1150 version) for two reasons 1) No BMW dealer within reasonable distance (Ducati Asford approx 2 miles from my house) 2)BMW seat hiegt and 28" inside leg are not compatible.
If it were not for these factors I would probably have chosen the GS over both the MD & Cappo

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ingo
MTS: 2007 1100 (Red)

   

Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 139
Location: Hamburg

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:06 am Reply with quote

Thanks for your short essay El Capitano Wink

So the new GS12 has electronic failures too after only 2500 miles, glad that Multi owners are not alone. You were always telling the new GS12 runs so smooth, well after my one hour test ride i can't believe that they added a balancer, it was not smoother than my GS1150.

If BMW would buy a part from the Aprilia group would be funny, since the most successful BMW bike ever is an Aprilia, the 650 single. But i think Aprilia is safe now again, in the italian sense of safe. I hope they stop their strange MotoGP bike and invest more in the nice 450 engine, seems the Supermoto runs fine.

Happy riding
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Captain Scarlet
MTS: Not specified

   

Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:45 am Reply with quote

Rocker:
I think you made the right decision going for the MS over the 1150GS, as I feel it's a better bike in most respects. I'm unsure why you feel you need to live near your dealer. Even though I have closer dealers I travelled 50 miles to my Ducati dealer for purchase and servicing. My rationale was that breakdown aside I'd probably only go there once a year for a service, maybe twice at best, so what's a nice one hour ride once a year? Generally I'd say by your bike (any) from wheoever is cheapest and have it serviced at a dealer with a good servicing reputation and buy spares and accesories over the net or at your nearest dealer. There is no major advantage in staying with the same dealer unnecessarily and I bought my three beemers from totally different dealers - if you have your bike serviced somewhere where you didn't buy still 'insist' on a curtosy bike or say you'll take your business elsewhere, they 'all' provide you with a bike no problem - despite what pre-sales migth say. I was nervous buying a Duke 50 miles away because of the (often unfounded) reputation for reliability, but figured these were usually minor problems and not major (i.e. engine and gearbox should be ok to get me back to the dealers), so bought with semi-confidence and wasn't a problem. However, I'd have been more confident buying a BMW, particularly boxer from a dealer 50 miles away and in fact my BWM (SLM in Caterham, just off J6 M25) dealer is 50 miles away from me in Ascot, Berks. Servicing is every 6,000 so basically I'll only need to pop in ionce a year as I don't expect to have any serious faults, just as I had zero faults with three previously owned BMW's. Again, like FireStorm, 'd say give Paul Hill at SLM a ring, tell him I sent you, and he'll give you a nice shiny new GS to have a play on. I asked for an 'extended' 1 hour ride. He insisted that I had it at leats four hours, covered a couple of hundred miles and even ride home to make sure it'd fit in my security garage! Zero hard sell, hot coffee and bacon sandwiches. I think it's everyone's god given right to go and ride every demo at every dealership irrelevant of marque or model and have done so on over 100 different bikes now - pikey free-loader, moi? ;-D BTW Rocker, BMW also do a low-seat option to go with the already height and distance adjustable standard seat. It's the same height (std) as the 1150 but the seat width is much thinner so it's easier to sit on. The difference betweent he MS and GS seat height in neglible - I lept from one to the other several times whilst side by side.

Ingo:
As I said, even a new Rolls can have problems, but it's less likely to. There are no battery failures reported on either the GSUKERs or ADVRider forums, and I suspect this problem was a one off isolated incident (left heated grips on?) as the hack has used an optimate trickle charger on it days when he's not riding - rather than identify the actual fault: machine or rider error? I'll try to email him and find out for us!

My brother (MS owner too) both thought the (different) GS's we tried were smoother than the MS. I thoguht marginally so, he thought amazingly so. Maybe you have a particularly good Tuesday morning MS and you rode a a Friday afternoon GS Very Happy Boxer typically used to require 10,000 running in miles to become really smooth, but that's no excuse the balancer shaft should be smooth from the off; I don't doubt your judgement though and respect your view to differ on your personal experience of that versus my own.

I couldn't agree with you more re: Prilla. The 650 was assembled by them, to agreed implemented BMW building processes, and the Rotax lump ('Bombadier' manufacturers?) is pretty generic too. I think the GP 'cube' has potential but it's the fly-by-wire techo stuff that has given too many headaches to solve throttle response wise. this is making it hard work for Jezza and Shakey although the factory is so pleased with Mista Byrne that they already want to extent his contract. The smart money is on the rules restricting cc to 900 to stop ever increasing top speed and potential safety issues (or more importantly to the series management the cost of course owners having to move the barriers back!), which then best lends itse;f to a triple configuration given the wight advantage. It's no surprise that Honda reputely already have a working 900 triple. Maybe it even runs fly-by-wire throttle; I wouldn't bet against that or Hond abeing first to perfect it. I've had many Honda's, they all work absolutely perfectly and are all very bland indeed a a direct result - hence the Ducati and BMW's!

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desconocido
MTS: 2003 1000 DS (Red)

   

Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Brescia, Italia

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 11:45 am Reply with quote

Captain Scarlet wrote:

"It's Italian - what did you expect?". again fair comment.


Maybe fair or maybe not, but not exceptionally clever to post on an international forum
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Captain Scarlet
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Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 12:49 pm Reply with quote

Desconocido:

I'm sorry that you feel the need to question my intelligence, however please allow me to clarify for you.

I would request of you that you please re-read my words and then I am sure you will realise the correct context for which they were written.

The quotation was not of my own words, but of a Ducati dealer - who I have not named, to preserve his right to personal privacy.

My addendum of 'again fair comment' reflects the fact that I respect his (and everyone's) democratic right to have a personal view, even if that view in not in congruence with my own.

If you had asked me do I agree with the dealers comment? Then I would have replied that I have had numerous Italian cars and bikes and have had many problems with all of them. This in itself does not mean that Italians cannot build high quality and reliable vehicles, however it can obviously blight an owners personal experience of ownership.

As an individual owner perhaps I have simply been unfortunate; however RiDE motorcycle, Top Gear car and What Car - annual Customer Satisfaction Surveys, unfortunately do seem to concur with my own personal experience on a generic populous basis. Ergo - go figure?

I have shown my postings to Simone Provvedi and Roberto Rossi (no relation) who sit next to me at work, and neither are offended by my personal comments.

The fact that they turn up at work three hours later than me, instantly have a 30 minute coffee break, do a little work followed by a two hour lunch break, does in no way detract from the conscientious quality work that they perform for my employer, which should be commended and in no way should be tarnished as representational of the typical Italian workforce. BTW tongue in cheek as this undoubtedly sounds in no way am I making this up. Ok, well sometimes it's only an hour and half for lunch I will concede.

If I have caused you or any Italians any offence by this comment then I sincerely apologise to both you and they; however I'm sure that most of my Italian friends are intelligent enough to work out that, Armani aside, everything Italian I've bought has fallen apart - and yet I still love everything about Italy and Italians, and therfore I must be truly endeared towards Italy and Italian people in a hugely positive way.

Chow.

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desconocido
MTS: 2003 1000 DS (Red)

   

Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Brescia, Italia

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 1:28 pm Reply with quote

Captain Scarlet wrote:

I have had numerous Italian cars and bikes and have had many problems with all of them.
Armani aside, everything Italian I've bought has fallen apart


And you bought another Italian machine. Terminal masochism?

My English is too poor to produce a proportionate answer to your witty post, but if I could write in Italian I had dozens of jokes!

I went to a GS-meeting in Belgium recently (my other bike is a 1150GS), maybe I met you, your significant one and your best friend. Or at least 3 other typical English motorcyclists Laughing Laughing
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Rocker
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Joined: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 1153
Location: Ashford Kent UK

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 1:48 pm Reply with quote

Captain Scarlet I don't feel that I "need" to live near my dealer (my honda dealer for my deauville is 25 miles away) but I find it more conveniant to do so. I often work 12 hour shifts (inc week-ends) and with a 35 mile journey home this doesn't leave a lot of spare time. My nearest BMW is approx 60 miles away and in London so it is hardly ideal for a quick trip to get anything done. When I had the slight accident involving knocking over the MS in my garage at home my local dealer picked up the bike fitted new mirror etc off a brand new bike off the show room floor and returned the bike to me. Collection/deliverywere free of charge.
If I need a small job done urgently on any of our 4 bikes he will often take a mechanic off a major job to help me. courtesy bikes are supplied as a matter of course and I get to ride all the demonstrators I want. IMO building up a relationship with a dealer is always worthwhile.In 41 years of riding I have found that once you find a good dealer they are woth cultivating
As to the seat height I rode the GS1150 and felt far less confident on this than I do the MS. This is a pity as I always enjoyed my air head BMWs including the most enjoyable I ever owned my R90/S

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desconocido
MTS: 2003 1000 DS (Red)

   

Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Brescia, Italia

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 1:58 pm Reply with quote

Hey Captain, I was waiting for your reply.

No way, you post on your working hours... Laughing
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Hans Wurst
MTS: 2003 1000 DS (Red)

   

Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 574
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:56 pm Reply with quote

Holla! guys, take it easy!!

On the other hand don't, it's quite some fun following your postings Whistle

waiting for more...
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Martin H
MTS: 2004 1000 DS (Black)

   

Joined: 07 Mar 2004
Posts: 248
Location: Nelson, Lancs

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:11 pm Reply with quote

Where did you get the picture of me and me bird from? Confused
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Prof
MTS: 2003 1000 DS (Red)

   

Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 260
Location: Montbrun-des-corbieres, France

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:16 pm Reply with quote

I still wouldn't buy another BMW (see earlier post ) - The dealer attitiude killed it for me.

The Ducati dealers have been fine

I have no "brand loyalty" but so far the MTS has been great.

It also does what I need.

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Captain Scarlet
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Joined: 24 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Ascot, Berks

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:10 am Reply with quote

Captain Chaos again! ;-D

I am so glad this posting is continuing at pace and promoting many personal, independant and even mildy strong views - this is what lively banter should be all about! Very Happy

Desconocido:

Your English is fine my friend, I understand you perfectly. Yes I bought another Italian machine and would still purchase another, especially Ducati, as they embody something which isn't easily measured or recorded in a spec sheet and that's passion. An emotive force which often sees form take presidence over function purely to please the eyes and lift the soul. What price that?

I have not been to Belgium or a GS rally, but your picture made me smile. Is that your bike or a tastefully decorated German owner's machine? I do like the rather fetching cerise pink mahawk Arai attachment, but I'm not sure that fashion will catch on near where I live!

As for the slow reply I had to leave the office at 16:00 yesterday. However I'm always here by 07:00 and rarely take lunch. Now, if only I were Italian! ;-D

Rocker:

Sorry matey, I think I owe you an apology. I agree with your comments whole-heartedly. If you ever decided to go back to BMW or get one to compliment the excellent MS, then I recommend SLM. I have built a good relationship with them, and as you say that can be important, and have also bought a Deuce from their Thames Valley Harley Davidson store as well (Dockgate 20 group). SLM delivered my new bike in a van free of charge (didn't want me to get wet on the forecasted rain on collection day), and I believe do a free collection / return service for winter servicing etc. Again I get the similar benefits you mention, too. Sawbridgeworth and SPC are also fair to good dealers too.

I bow to your superior riding term, I am but a mere boy in short trousers, with just 21 years experience Very Happy You must have enjoyed many changes probably from cork clutches and cross-plies to ceramic bores and digital clocks. You have my respect, sir.

Hans:

Watch this space I'm sure somebody else is bound to take my words the wrong way and it'll be a rag to a bull for sure! Very Happy I think generally speaking, if easily offended then people shouldn't view web forums, they are at the end of the day just a bit of light hearted fun which you choose to enjoy and maybe learn a few snippets of information from or ignore if you think the persons view doesn't tally with your own. We're all adults and if people get to serious and offended by it all I suggest they take time out away fromt eh screen and get laid instead. Now that's something equally as good as riding the MS! Very Happy

Prof:

Good for you. I do think having a dealer you trust and like is very important. It's always nice to walk in after a six month absence and the same sales satff be there, they call you by your Christian name and remember your wife's name etc. A simple friendly smile, free cup of coffee and the offer to go play in the sunshine on a variety of demo bikes. Well, it's what makes you feel good about choosing them in the first place isn't it?

I do have to say that when buying my first Duke and BMW I did sound out many dealers prior to purchase and I think it's fair to say that for both marque's some dealers were truly dreadful and some welcomed me like an old friend. they want your money and you want some mutual respect and to feel as though if you happen to have any issues, problems or concerns that they will all be dealt with seemlessly without you having to worry about them or the dealer even breaking into a stride. Ireelevant of your chosen bike's marque, if you do find that then stick with it.

I've owned many bikes from the big Jap four, most volume European manufacturers and American 'sickles' too. some dealers are good and some bad. I think the point I made in an earlier posting about dealers was badly made by me; what I meant was that a good dealer is always worth travelling to see and use, however as Rocker mentions it just happens to be a whole lot more convenient if they happen to be within reasonable short distance of where you live.

Looks like a hot one this weekend and I have no bike until September - more fool me Sad I got a grand more privately for the MS over what any dealer would offer me, and coupled with a busy life in and out of the office this summer, that was simply too big a difference to ignore. Still, now the sun is shining maybe I should have kept the SM for the summer! Enjoy. Very Happy

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